Organic vs Conventional Farming - How Can We Feed The World | Information

12:12 PM: Jack Davies Afternoon all - hope you are looking forward to the debate. We will get going in 20 minutes. The debate will be chaired by FG's political editor Alistair Driver. He will be with us at 12.30 to kick things off so stay tuned....

12:31 PM: Alistair Driver Welcome to Farmers Guardian’s first live online debate! The topic is: Organic or conventional farming – what is the best way to feed the world?
Yes, we know the answer can never be one or the other. But since the global food inflation crisis of 2008, politicians, scientists and the food industry have been wrestling with the world's long-term food problem.
Which is how to produce enough food to satisfy a rising world population, while protecting the resources needed to produce that food and coping with climate change and the often competing demands on the land for energy.
Much of the debate has focussed on the relative merits of conventional versus organic farming, plus related issues of sustainability, scale and technology.
So we have invited Peter Melchett, organic farmer and Soil Association’s policy director, and ‘conventional’ Essex farmer and journalist Guy Smith, to discuss the issue. So, let the debate begin. And please feel free to join in!

12:33 PM: Peter Melchett Some posts about this debate predict a slanging match - I hope not, as I'm sure does Guy. The Government Chief Scientist, the ex-Director of Rothamsted, and other scientists said in a recent paper on feeding the world that farming and food face a 'revolution' as radical as the agricultural and industrial revolutions of the 18th-19th centuries, but 'constrained as never before' by natural resources. UK farmers face a future where diets change radically to reduce diet-related ill-health, greenhouse gas emissions reduce by 80%, N and P are scarcer and cost more, while we increase wildlife on farms, improve animal welfare standards, and reduce pollution. Demand for some food will change - people will eat more local and seasonal food, less meat overall, but more grass-fed beef and lamb. I think organic farming has a lot to offer, but all farmers will be affected by coming revolution, and it needs serious discussion.

12:34 PM: Alistair Driver Thanks Peter. Now Guy...

12:34 PM: Guy Smith Fir
stly, let’s break down some barriers that the Soil Association love to erect. Like most farmers who are not certified as organic, I am very conscious that I have far more in common than I have differences in the way I farm with farmers who are certified. Yes, I might use more pesticides and artificial fertilisers but at the same time I use plenty of techniques and good husbandry that you find on organic farms – for instance in my arable operation I rotate my crops, I choose varieties that show good disease resistance, I use cultivation techniques to suppress weeds, I use organic manures to fertilise my soils – etc, etc, etc. And I’m not evading the question here, I’m striking at its very heart. The challenge of feeding the world in the future while protecting the environment is immense. We simply cannot afford to address these challenges by excluding ideas on the grounds that they are pigeon-holed by people like Lord Melchett as belonging to the ‘wrong’ camp. Our minds must remain open not closed. If by ‘conventional farming’ we mean seeking to produce more using less while using the best knowledge we have at our disposal then I would always advocate an open-minded conventional approach rather than a closed organic one. We will need all the tools in the box.

12:36 PM: Alistair Driver Thanks Guy. OK, first question... At the heart of the debate is the oft repeated claim that we need to double food production by 2050 to feed a global population projected to have reached 9 billion by that date. Peter, you think it’s all a ‘big fat lie’. So how much stall should we set by these figures as we discuss the future of farming? Guy first…

12:37 PM: Guy Smith If I remember the Soil Assoctaion view was that we wouldn't have to double food production by 2050 we would only have to increase it 70%. That still sounds a very big challenge to me.

12:39 PM: Alistair Driver Does it matter if if the figure is 70 or 100 per cent, Peter?

12:40 PM: Kent Farmers Wow this is slow. At this rate you will only get a couple of questions in by 1:15 :-)

12:41 PM: Peter Melchett That 30% is the equivalent of all the American continent's production - significant! I do object to the use of the phrase 'need to double food production' - the science on this is clear - we don't NEED to do this - the scientists found that if we do nothing, demand for meat and dairy will go up by 70% by 2050, but that means over 1 billion extra cattle, runaway climate change and massive rises in diet-realted ill-health globally, and it wouldn't stop hunger or starvation. We need to change food production, and produce more where the hungry live.

12:41 PM: Alistair Driver Peter, last summer you talked of organic farming as ‘potentially mainstream agriculture in waiting’ on the back of a report by Reading University. Do you stand by that?

12:43 PM: Sprayer How can it be conventional in waiting? Expensive to produce, and we can't increase production...

12:44 PM: Peter Melchett Yes, I agree with what Reading said - because in the period we are looking at - decades not years ahead - artificial N will become too expensive compared to biologically (clover) fixed N, and we'll start to run out of mined P in 30-60 years. It may be a longish wait, but I do think this i inevitable.

12:44 PM: Alistair Driver Guy, organic farming 'mainstream ag in waiting'?

12:46 PM: Guy Smith I have no doubt that in the future all farmers will have to adapt to a changing world but I doubt the best response will be to object to using things like synthetic pesticdes or GM technology on ideological grounds which is where the SA are at at the moment.

12:46 PM: Peter Melchett On cost, once oil gets (as it will) to $200 a barrel, it is cheaper to produce organically. On production - many scientists have already recognised, as I said in my opening statement, it's the tonnes per toone or calorie of input that matters more now that output per hectare.

12:47 PM: Kent Farmers As Guy said, conventional farming has always and will always take on whatever methods are required, but to hamstring farming to strict organic can not be the answer.

12:48 PM: Alistair Driver But, Peter, isn't the limiting factor land. Organic farming needs much more of it?

12:48 PM: Guy Smith I fail to see why expensive oil will preclude things like using RoundUp in conjunction with min till techniques.

12:49 PM: Sceptic Peter, as usual, buys in to all the current “enviro” fashions.

12:50 PM: Peter Melchett Alistair - no - limiting factors in future (and this is the revolution we face as farmers) will be land, oil, artificial N, mined P and massive restrictions on greenhouse gases - these huge changes need new thinking, and all we organic farmers say is that e can contribute a lot to that.

12:50 PM: Sprayer I think farmers will need to look at things like renewable energy, and not rely on oil. Surely that defeats the argument that with oil at $200 a barrel orgnic is better?

12:51 PM: Peter Melchett Guy - so far, GM and Roundup need artificial N

12:51 PM: Alistair Driver But Peter what of a recent report by Leeds University suggesting that organic farming is, on balance, NO BETTER for biodiversity than conventional farming because yields are lower (55 per cent) and it would require twice the amount of land to grow the same amount of food?

12:52 PM: Peter Melchett Sprayer - renewable energy isn't cheap - hence public subsidies for wind and solar - all energy will cost more in future, and very high energy inputs, like mineral N, will be much pricier.

12:52 PM: Kent Farmers GM needs no more N than conventional, in fact it may be made to fix it's own N

12:52 PM: Sceptic With all that ever cheaper green energy in prospect we can make as much nitrogen fertiliser as we wish.

12:53 PM: Guy Smith If you were to direct drill a crop into a legume/clover rich preceding crop by spraying it off first with RoundUp you would save a lot of oil but you would still be in breach of SA rules.

12:53 PM: Alistair Driver Guy, so do you believe GM has a role to play in all of this?

12:53 PM: Peter Melchett Alistair - Leeds looked at one crop (Winter Wheat), the press release didn't reflect the actual peer-reviewed scinence - and the pr was wrong!

12:55 PM: Guy Smith Ali, don't ask me, ask the millions of farmers around the world who are taking up GM as they see it a way of producing food using less inputs.

12:55 PM: AP Surely, we need the OPTION of GM. Not saying we need to use it on every farm, but we need the option

12:56 PM: Guy Smith I agree 100 %AP.

12:56 PM: Peter Melchett Guy - one of the things we haven't touched on yet is the role of citizens and consumers - the market. The SFP has already started to change how all of us think about what we produce, and I think we both agree that's good. Whatever inputs we use in future, I think we'll need to be driven much more than in either of our lifes by consumer and public views - on GM and much else.

12:57 PM: Guy Smith Peter, of course the consumer is king but as you know consumers can be influenced by pressure groups as to what they think is safe.

12:57 PM: Sceptic And consumers DO buy GM when it is available in spite of years of propaganda from the SA and their friends.

12:58 PM: Kent Farmers When petrol reaches £5 per litre the public will demand we go back to the Far East and secure our supply, so you can't reply on the public to back you when food starts to get short Peter

12:58 PM: Peter Melchett AP and Sceptic - I think GM is getting past it's sell-by date, for lots of reasons - the good news is that's there's a new technology, using the science of the DNA, that seems to work better and faster than GM - Marker Assisted Breeding, that Guy and I both support.

1:00 PM: Alistair Driver Peter, won't it be consumers ultimatley that decide the fate of organic farming, rather than the issues we are discussing? They have to be prepared to pay for it. Look what happened to sales last year...

1:00 PM: Kent Farmers The trouble is, the public have been scared off GM by you, so do you really think they will understand the difference of DNA science

1:00 PM: Peter Melchett Kent Farmers - I want all of us to work to get people buying far more UK food - so more seasonal, more unprocessed - we can change our food culture, and the Food for Life Partnersip the Soil Association is part of is doing this - see

1:00 PM: Guy Smith As ever, i wouldn't close my mind off to any new development but what I do know is that if I could control weeds in the crops I have now with RoundUp my farming would be a darn site easier and cheaper.

1:00 PM: Peter Melchett www.soilassociation.org

1:00 PM: Farmer Pete Kent farmers, don't forget the mass media campaigns against it - Frankenfoods is a difficult image to move away from

1:01 PM: Sceptic We know YOU, Peter, think that GM is past its sell-buy date but none of the none of the e.vidence backs you up

1:01 PM: Kent Farmers Peter, we can agree on that. The 'importing' of water from the 3rd world in the format of food can not continue, for thier own sake.

1:02 PM: Guy Smith I would happily join Peter in his efforts to get brits to eat more locally produced food as long as it is just 'local ' and not "local and organic". That rather excludes me and most of my fellows.

1:02 PM: Farmer Pete Agree with Kent there - we need to excercise some responsibility there. When will consumers understand the impact their buying purchases have?

1:02 PM: Peter Melchett Kent Farmers - on Marker Assisted Breeding - yes, it's working in Africa (no patent problems to put poor farmers off) and the worldwide organic movement is in favour - and I agree - 'embedded water' will become nearly as important as embedded Carbon (as in soya feed from Brazil)

1:03 PM: Paul Personally I dont want man made chemicals or GM appearing in the food my family eat so buy organic where possible.

1:04 PM: Paul Does anyone doubt the damage intensive farming does to the environment?

1:04 PM: John Paul, what if scientific evidence showed it was perfectly safe. USA has GM and we don't see people keeling over every time they eat it.

1:04 PM: Sceptic Does anyone doubt the impact ALL farming has on the environment?

1:05 PM: Kent Farmers Paul, so can you explain the difference between GM and the plant breeding that has gone on for the last 200 years?

1:05 PM: Guy Smith Paul, thats your prerogative but I'm sure you might understand if I reacted a little unkindly if you told me you wouldn't eat my produce because it is in some way unsafe or unwholesome. Call me touchy but I am very proud of what I produce.

1:05 PM: Paul scientific evidence has over the decades also been proved to be wrong after something was declared safe, my body does not need GM or pesticides in it so why take any risks when I dont have to?

1:05 PM: Alistair Driver Organic farming's success has been based on its place as a niche product carrying a premium. If it goes mainstream, how can it retain this reputation? Surely farms would have to be larger and prices lower?

1:05 PM: Peter Melchett Guy - our Food for Life Catering Mark promotes Red Tractor, Freedom Foods, local (aim is 50% at the Gold Mark) and unprocessed - and 30% organic (again at Gold) - over 100,000 FFL meals served daily - I wish the NFU did half as much to promote organic as we do to promote ALL local and Red ra ctor food!

1:06 PM: Keely If we went down the GM route then organic certainly would be premium, and no doubt have many more customers! Provided there is decent labelling

1:06 PM: Paul if 100% of the UK's agriculture was organic would our environment or our health be better or worse off?

1:06 PM: Guy Smith Peter, you know as well as I do if the NFU could blag millions out of the Lottery fund as you did it would promote ALL british farm produce.

1:07 PM: Keely Surely health would deteriorate if we went 100% organic - there wouldn't be enough food!

1:07 PM: Peter Melchett Alistair - when oil (and thus artificial N) and mineral P, go up in price (as I said about $200 per barrel for oil) organic gets cheaper - I will want to sell by organic pork or wheat into the pricer non-organic market!

1:08 PM: Kent Farmers Paul, the environment would be worse off, because of all the extra lorry movements to make up the massive shortfall

1:08 PM: Keely Environment though - fair point if we used less N it would be a benefit. But can't we do that without switching to organic?

1:08 PM: Paul I would like to see evidence of the comarable yields as I keep hearing conflicting views so I find it hard to know where the truth is

1:09 PM: Peter Melchett Keely - no - hrealthier as less intensive meat and dairy, and more grass fed beef and lamb, and more veg and fruit - the organic output matches what health professional say eshould eat pretty well.

1:09 PM: Sceptic Keely: we could eventually with GM. Peter won't like that.

1:09 PM: Paul I work in the water industry and we spend an awful lot of money trying to get the nitrates our of the water sources, that surely is a hidden cost of intensive farming thats just passed onto consumers

1:09 PM: Peter Melchett Paul - look at he Reading University report

1:10 PM: Guy Smith Paul, it is difficult to generalise but as a practical farmer I reckon my yields would roughly halve if I went organic.

1:10 PM: Peter Melchett Paul - tried to paste a link but didn't get in - you'll find a link from our (SA) website

1:11 PM: Liam Here's the Reading report if anyone's interested - www.reading.ac.uk

1:11 PM: Kent Farmers Paul, do the maths. If organic wheat is worth double or treble conventional wheat, if the yield was any good we would all be doing it.

1:12 PM: Guy Smith Paul, do you really think if the UK was 100% organic then the water you take into your works would be significantly cleaner than it is now?

1:12 PM: Paul maybe some government cash could be diverted from GM and into looking at how to increase yields organically, long term that would surely be better than continuing to see chemicals used, I would love to see farmers like Guy able to achieve the yields needed but without the chemicals

1:12 PM: Alistair Driver Does size matter when it comes to producing more food? Guy what's your take on Nocton Dairy-style 'super farms'. Peter will organic farms by definition be larger if organic goes mainstream? And will that harm the brand?

1:13 PM: Liam Nocton wasn't hurting anyone - the welfare lobby just saw the numbers and went mad. It's a sorry state of affairs, how are we supposed to progress in the face of such ignorance?

1:13 PM: Sceptic No much government money goes into GM; it comes almost entirely from the companies.

1:13 PM: Paul regarding water, I think it probably would be but thats a gut feeling answer that you guys would know better about, my feelings are that chemical fertilisers tend to give more run of and add more nitrate to the water sources than organic.

1:14 PM: Brussels farmer The whole idea with gene technology is that it will reduce chemical useage on farm

1:14 PM: Guy Smith Ali, if we british farmers are expected to compete against farmers that use economies of scale abroad then we will need those same economies of scale. If we are protected from that competition then we won't.

1:14 PM: Peter Melchett ...and Guy the report shows some sharp declines (intensive pigs and poultry disappear), some smaller drops (20% dairy, 30-40% - not 50% - on wheat and barley) some the same - most veg. peas and beans - and some increases - beef and lamb. But, to return to my opening, a huge decrease in inputs to get that food - and no longer feeding 50% or so of our grain to animals not humans - and 70% more jobs in our industry.

1:14 PM: Kent Farmers Paul, no government money currently goes into GM. UK cereal farmers have funded trials into Organic growing, and it does not stack up

1:14 PM: Peter Melchett Guy - unless we can work together to get UKcnsumers to value Uk food far more than now!

1:16 PM: Alistair Driver Could/should the organic/conventional sectors be doing more to work together? Do they need to compete?

1:16 PM: Guy Smith Peter, i would love to work together on that promotion but you have a nasty tendency of demonising my produce as in some way unsafe and my farming as in some way uncaring. Stop saying that and we will become the Cameron and Clegg of the farming world.

1:16 PM: Rob Key Interested in what you guys think, can organic and conventional sit side by side in British agriculture. I really hope so!

1:17 PM: SWC I don't normally comment on these things but now feel compelled to do so, I think we are all in agreement that we have to increase food production the issue is how do we do this. I understand this is a conventional v organic debate but the 'I'm better then you' 'no I'm better then you' is beginning to grate with me. We all have a place whether organic or conventional and surely we should be talking about the common ground between the two and finding out where we can learn from each other and work together as an industry to move forward.

1:17 PM: Alistair Driver So that's a 'no' then!

1:17 PM: Peter Melchett Brussels farmer - but latest data from the USA shows that overall pesticide use on crops wher GM varieties dominate has now increased not decreased (there was an initial drop, but on mst crops as resistance kicked in, pesticide use incrased). Latest US data here:

1:17 PM: Paul it would be impossible for our farms to go all organic anyway without government ensuring farmers are not losing out, that imports either meet our standards or are penalised by taxes that make UK products cheaper. Not likely to happen imho

1:18 PM: Sceptic Conventional and organic already do coexist. The question is about the GM that's bound to come; what will organic do then?

1:18 PM: Rob Key SWC - here here! Agree wholeheartedly, but Sceptic is right, GM could be hugely devisive

1:19 PM: Alistair Driver Peter, Guy thinks you have a 'nasty tendency of demonising my produce as in some way unsafe and my farming as in some way uncaring'. What say you?

1:19 PM: Peter Melchett Guy - on the 'organic knocks conventional' issue there is a real problem - in most industries, in fact in all except farming, it is normal for producers of a product that generally costs more to produce, to explain any higher cost to customers by pointing to the advantages that product has over cheaper versions. For some reason, in farming, we're told we can't do that. Why?

1:20 PM: Paul I dont think we can claim intensive farming and GM are vital to ensure we can feed the world, if we feed everyone in the world now we will have famine in 10 years time again because of the rocketting world population, we will never be able to keep increasing production forever, world population growth needs to be tacked to solve hunger

1:20 PM: Guy Smith SWC - I have never undermined the wholesomeness of organic produce to anyone, I can live quite happily side by side. But, again, you must understand I get a bit touchy when others claim my produce is in some way unsafe or unwholesome or I am unkind to the animals in my care or I compromise the beauty and bio-diversity of my farm. I don't.

1:21 PM: Guy Smith Peter, because we are brother farmers and we don't have to sink to the depths of the advertising industry.

1:21 PM: Brussels farmer I guess though high value retailers dont say that discounters sell unsafe food

1:22 PM: Peter Melchett Paul - the UK will go organic a long way behind most of the EU - many EU countries (and now the US) have organic sales either way ahead of ours (eg Germany, Holland, Sweden), or growing faster than us (eg USA) farmers in the EU countires with higher organic sales are not suffering at all - quite the reverse.

1:23 PM: Guy Smith Paul, I know more about farming than I do about family planning. I do have three kids though but have now worked out what causes them to come along.

1:23 PM: Kent Farmers Currently in the UK, the consumer is turning away from Organic to local. Ask any Box Scheme

1:24 PM: Peter Melchett Guy - on selling organic - I don't think you have answered my question - it's a real dilemna - organic farmers don't want to knock their neighbours, but all organic businesses need to explain the benfits of their products - I think non-organic farmers could do more to understand, and accept this.

1:25 PM: Guy Smith Peter, well concentrate on the merits of you own produce/farming and stop demonising mine.

1:25 PM: Peter Melchett Kent Farmers - based on what organic businesses and companies like Tesco and Waitrose say, we expect the orgainic market to return to growth this year - after a difficult year in 2009up to 30% growth in 2007 and 2008

1:26 PM: Kent Farmers I buy some organic food, not because I think it's safer, but because it is fresher in my local farm shop.

1:26 PM: Peter Melchett Guy - my merits are the advantages my pork, say, has over conventional pork!

1:27 PM: Guy Smith Peter, was that Pork or Porkies?

1:27 PM: Paul Guy your farm is probably great and the produce very nice but there are lots out there that are not, multi store pig farms for instance have no place in farming

1:27 PM: Brussels farmer its all about offer but any claim has to be support with hard evidence. Some of the claims made are questionable ask EFSA and the FSA

1:27 PM: Alistair Driver Peter, are the public clear on what those advanatges are? The FSA concluded last year that organic was no healthier or nutritious than conventional...

1:27 PM: Paul grrr, work getting in the way, be nice while I am away :)

1:28 PM: Alistair Driver Thanks for joining Paul...

1:28 PM: Guy Smith Paul, thanks for that. All I'd say is ask questions and keep an open mind about where your food comes from and seek out your local farmers, don't pigeon hole us.

1:29 PM: Kent Farmers Me too, but it's been good to swap ideas with Peter, Guy etc Please do it again Alistair :-)

1:29 PM: Peter Melchett We have inevitably got onto GM and the marketing issue of comparing organc to non-organic, but I want to come back to the scientific consensus that farmig and food face a revolution - and it is one which mns how we judge farming will change from yield per hactare to resource use efficiency - I believe this will change the way we think about oyr farm businesses - and the pressure will come from the cost of inputs more than Government or EU policy.

1:30 PM: Alistair Driver OK. The hour is nearly up. Time to wrap up any outstanding threads. Do want to make you concluding statements

1:30 PM: Guy Smith Peter, I would agree with that but I would repeat we will need all the tools in the box.

1:31 PM: Brussels farmer remember to look at the cost of changing supply chains

1:32 PM: Peter Melchett Alistair - just have! It's been great to debate, there are real differences between Guy and me, but I have enjoyed the discussion, and been delighted that we have avoided the abuse and personal insults which, in my experience, can characterise some discussions and the web! A tribute to FG readers.

1:34 PM: Guy Smith Peter, your saving grace is you are a proper gentleman. The last hour has flown but thanks FG for setting this up and inviting me along. Its been a blast. Now, where's that maggot spray?

1:36 PM: Alistair Driver What elegant closing statements! More harmony than division. Really good debate. Entertaining and passionate - as we expected. Thank-you both - and other contributors - very much for your time and comments. we'll do it again!

1:39 PM: Jack Davies Thank you all for joining us today - its been a great debate. We will keep this thread open if you have any outstanding comments or questions and want to keep debating into the afternoon...

1:45 PM: Keeley Great debate guys!! Good to see no slanging match, and some constructive ideas. We are all part of the same industry so cooperation is key if we are going to ensure a healthy future for UK farming

Organic vs Conventional - what is the best way to feed the world?

Welcome to our LIVE debate.

This event has now closed, but you can catch up on all the action as it happened below.